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	<title>Comments on: Where does cheating begin?</title>
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	<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/</link>
	<description>education + technology + ideas</description>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1327</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1327</guid>
		<description>I agree that this is a sticky situation. We all want our students to study and know the material so that they can answer the questions on the test. As a student I was always saying, &quot;this is dumb. I will never need to know this in the &#039;real world&#039; and if I do I can just look it up!&quot; I think some things really don&#039;t need to be memorized. For me, an elementary school teacher, I will not need to know how to find the derivative of an equation and if for some unknown reason I really do, I can just look up how to do it. Some things, however, I do need to know so I can teach my students. I need to know grammar and basic math. I guess the challenge becomes determining what type of information really needs to be learned, and what information we can just look up using our resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that this is a sticky situation. We all want our students to study and know the material so that they can answer the questions on the test. As a student I was always saying, &#8220;this is dumb. I will never need to know this in the &#8216;real world&#8217; and if I do I can just look it up!&#8221; I think some things really don&#8217;t need to be memorized. For me, an elementary school teacher, I will not need to know how to find the derivative of an equation and if for some unknown reason I really do, I can just look up how to do it. Some things, however, I do need to know so I can teach my students. I need to know grammar and basic math. I guess the challenge becomes determining what type of information really needs to be learned, and what information we can just look up using our resources.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1326</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1326</guid>
		<description>Yes the ability to use tools to find information is a skill students need to learn.  But so is the ability to learn how to study so that they can recall information.  No I don&#039;t care that a student remembers the symbol for Manganese in 30 years - but the skills that I should have taught him in order to remember that information at least for a little while are important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes the ability to use tools to find information is a skill students need to learn.  But so is the ability to learn how to study so that they can recall information.  No I don&#8217;t care that a student remembers the symbol for Manganese in 30 years &#8211; but the skills that I should have taught him in order to remember that information at least for a little while are important.</p>
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		<title>By: What gets people talking.. &#124; Mark Clancy's Bloggy Departure Lounge</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1321</link>
		<dc:creator>What gets people talking.. &#124; Mark Clancy's Bloggy Departure Lounge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1321</guid>
		<description>[...] seeing Chris Betcher&#8217;s blog and all the comments that it elicited (27), I also saw another blog the now quite famous: &#8220;Is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seeing Chris Betcher&#8217;s blog and all the comments that it elicited (27), I also saw another blog the now quite famous: &#8220;Is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1320</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 02:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1320</guid>
		<description>Hi Chris,

I have seen my family doctor on many an occasion pull out his CPS (Compendium of Pharmaceuticals and Specialties) to look something up, err, cheat, help my kids get better.  I was glad he did.

Simon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chris,</p>
<p>I have seen my family doctor on many an occasion pull out his CPS (Compendium of Pharmaceuticals and Specialties) to look something up, err, cheat, help my kids get better.  I was glad he did.</p>
<p>Simon</p>
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		<title>By: Blogging &#124; Mark Clancy's Bloggy Departure Lounge</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1315</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogging &#124; Mark Clancy's Bloggy Departure Lounge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1315</guid>
		<description>[...] good is blogging? I was reading Chris Betcher&#8217;s blog on education&#8217;s role vis a vis students being able to regurgitate data versus them knowing [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] good is blogging? I was reading Chris Betcher&#8217;s blog on education&#8217;s role vis a vis students being able to regurgitate data versus them knowing [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1314</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 10:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1314</guid>
		<description>Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.  It&#039;s been wonderful to watch the discussion unfold over the last few weeks.

Just for the record, I totally agree that there must be baseline standards in &quot;knowledge&quot; and I&#039;m not suggesting that we dump the idea of learning and recall in favour of being ignorant but armed with a cellphone.

I often think about it like this...  when you&#039;re putting a jigsaw puzzle together, the first few pieces are really hard because you have no reference points.  You have all those blue pieces that you know are part of the sky, but it&#039;s hard to join them together at first.  As you gradually get more pieces on the table it gets progressively easier to figure out where the next piece goes.  The last few pieces are really easy because there is so much of the rest of the puzzle in place...  the more pieces you get the more you, quite literally, get the big picture.

Learning facts and remembering information seems kind of similar. If you don&#039;t have a good general knowledge, then it&#039;s hard to connect the pieces as you &quot;learn&quot; new facts.  You get presented with them, but if you don&#039;t have a lot of other &quot;knowledge&quot; to hang those new facts on, they often just don&#039;t connect in your schema of the world. If you have a pretty good general knowledge you are probably more likely to learn new facts more effectively because many of them will be building on things you already know.  The more you know, the more you know.

Just having access to something like Google won&#039;t help much if you have a limited ability to connect the facts you discover.  Well, it will, in that you can &quot;find answers&quot;, but you probably won&#039;t build real learning.

And that&#039;s where I think a teacher brings value to the learning process. Although we all espouse the value of a student-centered learning process, it&#039;s a wise teacher, providing explicit teaching that&#039;s the link between just helping kids to know stuff, and helping kids to learn how to learn, helping them to know how to find information when it&#039;s needed, helping them to connect the dots.  

All of you who spoke about the idea of &quot;just Googling&quot; not being enough, you&#039;re absolutely right.  But it&#039;s a useful skill to be able to find information on demand when you really need it.  It just needs to be seen as one of the skills - literacies - of living in today&#039;s world, as is just another way that we keep adding pieces to the jigsaw puzzle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.  It&#8217;s been wonderful to watch the discussion unfold over the last few weeks.</p>
<p>Just for the record, I totally agree that there must be baseline standards in &#8220;knowledge&#8221; and I&#8217;m not suggesting that we dump the idea of learning and recall in favour of being ignorant but armed with a cellphone.</p>
<p>I often think about it like this&#8230;  when you&#8217;re putting a jigsaw puzzle together, the first few pieces are really hard because you have no reference points.  You have all those blue pieces that you know are part of the sky, but it&#8217;s hard to join them together at first.  As you gradually get more pieces on the table it gets progressively easier to figure out where the next piece goes.  The last few pieces are really easy because there is so much of the rest of the puzzle in place&#8230;  the more pieces you get the more you, quite literally, get the big picture.</p>
<p>Learning facts and remembering information seems kind of similar. If you don&#8217;t have a good general knowledge, then it&#8217;s hard to connect the pieces as you &#8220;learn&#8221; new facts.  You get presented with them, but if you don&#8217;t have a lot of other &#8220;knowledge&#8221; to hang those new facts on, they often just don&#8217;t connect in your schema of the world. If you have a pretty good general knowledge you are probably more likely to learn new facts more effectively because many of them will be building on things you already know.  The more you know, the more you know.</p>
<p>Just having access to something like Google won&#8217;t help much if you have a limited ability to connect the facts you discover.  Well, it will, in that you can &#8220;find answers&#8221;, but you probably won&#8217;t build real learning.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s where I think a teacher brings value to the learning process. Although we all espouse the value of a student-centered learning process, it&#8217;s a wise teacher, providing explicit teaching that&#8217;s the link between just helping kids to know stuff, and helping kids to learn how to learn, helping them to know how to find information when it&#8217;s needed, helping them to connect the dots.  </p>
<p>All of you who spoke about the idea of &#8220;just Googling&#8221; not being enough, you&#8217;re absolutely right.  But it&#8217;s a useful skill to be able to find information on demand when you really need it.  It just needs to be seen as one of the skills &#8211; literacies &#8211; of living in today&#8217;s world, as is just another way that we keep adding pieces to the jigsaw puzzle.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1313</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1313</guid>
		<description>@Dan Robinson...  Funny you should mention that.

http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/08/20/the-truth-is-out-there/

I work at that school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dan Robinson&#8230;  Funny you should mention that.</p>
<p><a href="http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/08/20/the-truth-is-out-there/" rel="nofollow">http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/08/20/the-truth-is-out-there/</a></p>
<p>I work at that school.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Robinson</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1312</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 06:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1312</guid>
		<description>Check out this article from the Sydney morning post relating the trial of using cell phones in exams.
Phone a Friend Exam&#039;s

http://www.smh.com.au/news/athome/phone-a-friend-in-exams/2008/08/20/1218911794460.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out this article from the Sydney morning post relating the trial of using cell phones in exams.<br />
Phone a Friend Exam&#8217;s</p>
<p><a href="http://www.smh.com.au/news/athome/phone-a-friend-in-exams/2008/08/20/1218911794460.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.smh.com.au/news/athome/phone-a-friend-in-exams/2008/08/20/1218911794460.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1310</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 00:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1310</guid>
		<description>The real issue about cheating has always been passing others&#039; work off as one&#039;s own. In extreme cases, as at universities, it is the most fundamental of all theft: your identity and accomplishments are stolen. Imagine going to a job interview and rattling off your PhD thesis and publications only to be told by the interviewer &quot;We&#039;re familiar with that but we know that it was written by so &amp; so&quot;. This is not far-fetched. It happened to a colleague. Her career was ruined. The thief got a promotion.  As we move toward &#039;open source&#039; one thing is sure - the fat cats always make sure their name is on everything as author - whether they wrote it or not. Research assistant drones will only fall further behind. ... and we wonder why we can&#039;t get kids interested in science careers!

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real issue about cheating has always been passing others&#8217; work off as one&#8217;s own. In extreme cases, as at universities, it is the most fundamental of all theft: your identity and accomplishments are stolen. Imagine going to a job interview and rattling off your PhD thesis and publications only to be told by the interviewer &#8220;We&#8217;re familiar with that but we know that it was written by so &amp; so&#8221;. This is not far-fetched. It happened to a colleague. Her career was ruined. The thief got a promotion.  As we move toward &#8216;open source&#8217; one thing is sure &#8211; the fat cats always make sure their name is on everything as author &#8211; whether they wrote it or not. Research assistant drones will only fall further behind. &#8230; and we wonder why we can&#8217;t get kids interested in science careers!</p>
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		<title>By: Whats the purpose? &#124; Pete's Educational Rant</title>
		<link>http://betch.edublogs.org/2008/10/12/where-does-cheating-begin/comment-page-1/#comment-1309</link>
		<dc:creator>Whats the purpose? &#124; Pete's Educational Rant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 02:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betch.edublogs.org/?p=380#comment-1309</guid>
		<description>[...] reading Chris Betcher&#8217;s post on Cheating I&#8217;m convinced that PLC has got it right. At what point are we going to realise that the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reading Chris Betcher&#8217;s post on Cheating I&#8217;m convinced that PLC has got it right. At what point are we going to realise that the [...]</p>
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