Comments on: You say that like it’s a bad thing

By: Faraday Pang

Faraday Pang — Sun, 18 May 2008 07:30:08 +0000

Hi Chris,
Love your post and all the responses. Great topic for discussion indeed! As I teach Years 5 to 12 students, when setting research tasks, I always help them to get through the first stage–surfing on-line(we have given up Library resources at this stage). I literally sit next to them to see how they start doing it, make sure they are on the right track, and then I checked the finished project before they submit them to give them final comments. I would have picked up their problems in the process and I always list “acknowledge your sources” as part of the tasks.
I don’t mind them cutting and pasting info from the internet as long as they put them in the right order, re-write part of them in their own words, as well as thoroughly understand everything they used.
That boy in your post would have got a good grade from me if he does know everything he submitted and acknowledge all the contributors.
Do you agree?
(By the way, this is my very belated 23 things homework… sorry)

By: Jenny Luca

Jenny Luca — Sun, 18 May 2008 01:24:33 +0000

Hi Chris,
Sad really that teachers can’t see that we need to be thinking about how we teach our students and the skills they are going to be needing when they enter the workplace. Like you, I think the kid did well- reward them for their initiative and chide ourselves for the mindless tasks we set our students that aren’t going to help them cut it in this world. Not saying I’m perfect - I’ve set quite a few ordinary tasks in my time!

By: Chris

Chris — Fri, 16 May 2008 22:50:49 +0000

THanks for the feedback everyone…

@Jo, thanks. I’m looking forward to meeting up with you too. I was thinking of flying down on Wednesday night, but I’ll save it for the next time!

@Gavin, You’re right. It’s all about the mindset. Another thing that Will mentioned was how surveys show some 75% of our students regularly use social networking sites. A show of hands from the educators in the room showed 10-15% of teachers use these things. Somewhat of a disconnect?! Until the teachers are familiar with and understand the use of social technologies, then they probably aren’t in any position to make any sort of judgment at all.

@Heather, I agree that A vs F scenario is probably oversimplifying the entire situation. You’re right, that the truth lies somewhere in between… the teacher and the student (and probably the entire class) need to have a good discussion about the meanings and implications of the entire situation. Lots of good learning could take place from that. There very well may have been more to the story than I’m aware of, but it’s an interesting question to ponder regardless.

@Kim C, Thanks for joining the Zealot Club! Welcome to the blogosphere!

@Janet, thanks for the link!

@Kim C aka Superkimbo, the “preparing students for the real world” argument is a complete furphy. For students, this IS the real world.

@Alannah, I’m with you. I hope my doctor is connected and networked when I walk in with some symptom s/he hasn’t seen before. I don’t care if s/he doesn’t know the answer right then and there, but I sure as heck hope s/he knows where to find it!

@Adam, Thanks. We need more educators that think like you! You’re totally right in saying that the real problem was in setting a task that was based on simple information foraging and rehashing. I like your examples… thanks for sharing them.

By: azrunner

azrunner — Fri, 16 May 2008 20:02:16 +0000

Hi!

Great post! In a situation like you described one has to ask: what was the teacher trying accomplish with the project? I’m assuming the main objective was to learn more about the subject, so I would have a hard time saying this student didn’t learn something, if not more somethings, than other students in the class. So many times these issues come down to figuring out just what it is we are trying to accomplish. For the teacher in this case, I would almost take issue with the whole idea of simply writing a report on a subject. How many other students simply copied content from their sources to compile their more “traditional” report? What else new and actually useful did they get from completing the assignment (how many of us remember the reports we wrote in elementary school??) Rather than writing typical reports, we need to start challenging students to DO something with the information they find: apply it, extend it, synthesize it. With so many sources that just give information how useful is it to just write a report about a famous person? Rather, let’s create a movie to show his life, write about what he might do about a current issue, or create a case for the person being a positive/negative influence to the future. Let’s have students create, not tell.

By: Kim’s Ventures in Education » Blog Archive » Just Call Me a Zealot!

Fri, 16 May 2008 06:34:16 +0000

[...] entitled, “Betchablog” authored by Chris Betcher. I was reading the post, “You say that like it’s a bad thing“. He shared an anecdote from Will Richardson who was speaking at a conference that I found [...]

By: Allanahk

Allanahk — Thu, 15 May 2008 11:59:44 +0000

Hey Chris,

We are looking forward to hearing Will at ULearn08 in Christchurch, NZ, in October. Just finished watching his UStream.

Well done to the kid who used all the resources he could to complete his assignment. Give credit where credit is due- he did exactly what I used to do at school- try and get a good mark. I got a text and dumbed down the big words so the teacher would think that I could have written the assignment myself. If I did a good job of changing the big words into smaller ones the teacher would give me a good mark. If I didn’t then I would get a poor mark. So much of what we learn at secondary school is total irrelevant rubbish any way.

It would have been better to credit the work to the real authors and bring in a range of resources from a variety of sources.

Knowledge is a illusive, diaphanous thing- better to give people the tools to find out what they want, when they want it than to fill learning time with out-of-date recalling of facts.

I like it when my doctor goes to books or the internet to delve more deeply into a medical problem- I don’t expect him to everything about everything. I want him to find out the most up to date information- not solutions that were current when he went to medical school ten years ago.

Now I will hop down off my soap box.

By: mscofino

mscofino — Thu, 15 May 2008 03:00:32 +0000

Personally, if a zealot is a fanatically committed person then I think we need more zealots in education.

I’m with you Chris! Why aren’t we all passionately committed to pushing education forward? Isn’t this what teaching and learning is all about?

Love the story. I find it ironic that schools use the excuse that we’re preparing students for the business world to suck all the creative energy out of them (this story comes around a lot when trying to switch from Windows to Mac in my experience), but yet it’s clear that businesses actually want those creative skills we’re stifling on a daily basis (Sir Ken Robinson, anyone?). Maybe we should try to be a little more informed about what the “business” world really wants before we try to prepare our students for something we clearly know very little about…

By: Janet Barnstable

Janet Barnstable — Wed, 14 May 2008 22:03:03 +0000

Interestingly Ian Jukes has pointed to and article in which a teacher in British Columbia uses Wikipedia for his students to “publish” their term papers.

http://web.mac.com/iajukes/thecommittedsardine/BLOG/Entries/2008/5/12_Educational_Wikipedia.html

Not HERE is a real thinker/teacher. Yea, indeed, perhaps even a zealot.

By: Kim Caise

Kim Caise — Tue, 13 May 2008 21:12:17 +0000

That was an awesome post and I thank you for sharing the anecdote of the student doing research and created a wiki. I am definitely a promoter of change and often labeled a ‘non conformist’ and now, hopefully, a zealot. It would not have occurred to me to fail this student as I was applauding the student for thinking outside the box, or outside the known wikipedia, and created new avenues for research. The student still had to read, research/validate the comments and synthesize the information to complete the assignment - all of which are tasks that I want my students actively engaged and enhanced with web 2.0 tools. I am with you on this matter and wholeheartedly agree a major shift must occur in order for students to be better prepared for the new frontiers of the flat world.

By: Heather Loy

Heather Loy — Tue, 13 May 2008 21:08:09 +0000

I hope there is more to the story of the kid and the research/Wikipedia snafu. Just based on what you wrote here, I’d say both the student and teacher are wrong. The student should have approached the teacher with the lack of resources problem and explained what he wanted to do. As a teacher, I’d have been thrilled that the student was problem solving and want to see the results of his “experiment.” I’d want to compare the results of the Wikipedia edit to what I expected to receive from the student had he only used traditional sources. If the student hadn’t initially come to me, I’d still not have given him a failing grade. I’d have made him redo the assignment along with telling me what he learned from the experience. The only reason I could see for failing the student would have been if he hadn’t properly cited his resources (Wikipedia) and tried to pass off the information as his own work.